Modi as darling of RSS is media interpretation, says Ram Madhav, RSS ideologue (India TV Exclusive)

New Delhi: Senior RSS ideologue Ram Madhav has said it was only media's interpretation that Gujarat chief minister Narendra Modi is the darling of RSS. In an exclusive interview to India TV, Ram Madhav said: "You just go back to 3 years and tell me what the media was writing about Modi and RSS. "At that time you used to write that RSS and Modi are arch-rivals, they don't see eye to eye and all. "Now media says Modi is the darling of RSS. These are all media interpretations. "All the decisions in BJP are taken by BJP only. Yes, there will be consultations because we share the same ideology and vision. And why should there be any problem to India TV or anybody else if BJP and RSS leaders have no problem about sharing views."Asked how the RSS would reconcile its Swadeshi philosophy with Modi's economic views about inviting foreign investors to India, Ram Madhav sidestepped the question and said: "Even in Gujarat, their manufacturing base is strong. Their infrastructure is strong. They have good roads, electricity, and good internet connectivity. "Once you develop all this, you go for open markets, you invite people from outside. But in India, where is electricity and roads? How can industry survive in this country? "Probably for the next government, this is the biggest challenge. The pathetic condition of our basic infrastructure speaks volumes about today's economic mess. That has to be corrected."Ram Madhav then went on to explain the RSS' swadeshi model. "Coming to the economic model that we believe in, 20 years ago when this liberalization process had started, we had said that we need a model where Indian economic fundamentals are strengthened first."To this day, we have not done that. Our manufacturing sector is in pathetic condition. For defence equipments, we have to look to other countries like France, Austria and Russia.. This has resulted in current account deficit problem. "Everything is being imported in this country- from shirts to shoes. You want to open even retail sector for Walmart. "I believe there, our fundamentals are wrong. That's why we say -strengthen Indian economy that is equal to European economy. European market consists of less than 35 crore customers. In India, we have 50 plus crore middle class here. "Use this as a potential market, strengthen Indian economy and then go for international liberalization programmes." Ram Madhav who is a member of the RSS central executive, spoke at length about RSS viewpoint on various issues including the RSS concept of Hindu Rashtra and cultural nationalism. Ram Madhav was RSS spokesperson for 10 long years. He believes that India as a nation should follow the age old ‘Hindu culture' that is inclusive and under which all communities can co-exist despite having different ways of worship. Ram Madhav blames men's attitude towards women for increase in crime against women. He is of the firm opinion that men have no right to decide what a woman should wear or not wear. Here goes full text of the interview: Q: Let's start with the journey of RSS. Where does RSS find itself after 88 years of its existence in terms of achieving the objectives with which Dr Hedgewar had founded the organization? Ram Madhav: This is a very good question. It's always important for every organization to do some kind of a stock taking exercise which we do from time to time. The RSS was founded by Dr Hedgewar with an avowed objective of uniting Hindu society which was riddled with caste differences and many other forms of divisions within. Then the idea was to unite the society, then inculcate values like patriotism, love for the culture, religion and country and encourage the people of this country especially the youngsters to take up the service of our motherland and deprived people of this country through different means. Looking back, I can say that we are satisfied at the way the organization has progressed in last 88 years. Today you will find RSS members in various walks of social lives. You find them running schools, teaching millions of students in around 25,000 schools that they run, they are serving the tribal people. They are working in political arena. They have become PMs and CMs. I would say the organization is progressing successfully towards achieving the objectives with which Dr Hedgewar had launched the RSS in 1925. Having said it, I should also add that we are conscious of the fact that the mission is not complete. Even to this day, we still see a lot of division in Hindu society. It is still riddled with caste differences. We still have a number of social evils. Women are not feeling safe in this country. We are conscious of different problems and our people are doing a lot of hard work to retrieve the country from this morass. Q: As you said, one of your major objectives was to unify the Hindu society. But casteism is at its worst. For example, take the case of Ram temple. Ram temple is not being opposed by Muslims only. It is being opposed by that section of Hindu society that feels that they were persecuted in the past. So what is the RSS is doing in this area? Ram Madhav: See, most of the opposition coming from Hindu society to issues like Ram temple is motivated by political consideration and vote bank politics. Otherwise, larger Hindu society, irrespective of caste, supports the idea that there should be a grand temple at the place Lord Rama was born. In fact, Ram temple has become a major unifying factor in this country as far as caste differences are concerned.Q: Do you believe that caste system should be abolished from Hindu society? Ram Madhav: RSS has always believed that the present caste system has nothing to do with ancient varna system. The present caste system under which a person is directly born into a particular caste and then you have created an artificial divisions like some castes are upper castes, some castes are lower castes, these are all artificial divisions. We are for certain privileges to the deprived sections of our society that they get on caste identity. While they should get those privileges, we have to reach a goal where in this country we have a society that is free of caste differences. Today the caste system has outlived its utility and now it should go lock, stock and barrel. How will it go is a major challenge. Today politicians want it although they shout from roof top that they want casteless society. Will it go if you play caste politics is a big question? So how should we overcome it? We tried a very unique model. We said let the larger identity is promoted, the larger identity of our cultural oneness. We are all one. Our culture is ancient and in that culture no inequality, no one is big or small. One of our previous Chiefs Balasaheb Deoras himself said that this caste system has outlived its utility and it should go. Q: Will you explain the concept of ‘Hindu Rashtra'? What will be the role of minorities like Muslims and Christians in a ‘Hindu Rashtra'? Will they be equal partners or they will be reduced to second grade citizens as they fear? Ram Madhav: For understanding the concept of ‘Hindu Rashtra'; all you have to do is to understand the concept of Gandhi's ‘Ram Rajya'. When Gandhi ji talked about Ram Rajya, similar questions were raised as to whether it was part of Hindu supremacy theory. I would say,' Hindu Rashtra' is a concept which represents age old Indian Hindu cultural values. These values will play the supreme role in running all the affairs of the country including politics, social system and economic model. Hindu social order is the most egalitarian, most tolerant, and most catholic order. It is the Hindu system which believes that irrespective of your way of worship, you are respected, we are one and we are all equals. So that is what the essence of Hindu Rashtra is. It is the system based on age old Hindu cultural and civilization values. It's not a religious system. It has no communal agenda. Coming to place of minorities in this system, firstly, Hindu ethos does not treat somebody as minority merely because he follows a particular way of worship. In our views, we are all equals. Nobody is minority or majority. Anybody who prefers to follow a particular way of worship will be free to do that but on one condition – we all have to live as equals. Q: But what is your problem with secular India? Ram Madhav: Does secularism mean treating people differently because of religious identities? Or true secularism should mean treating everybody on equal footing irrespective of whatever religion he belongs to? We believe that let's have different ways of worship but all of us should live as one people, one society as equals and that is true secularism. But if you are trying to say that in the name of secularism, a particular group of people should be given special privileges because they follow a particular way of worship, we don't subscribe to that kind of secularism.Q: How do you look at the secularism that is being practiced in this country? Ram Madhav: In this country what is being followed is pseudo-secularism. Secularism in real sense should mean that state should treat all religions equally and it should maintain equidistance from all religions. In this country, it is just the opposite. In this country, the state divides our nation on religious lines in terms of majority and minority. We need true secularism. Q: So you will not demand ‘Hindu Rashtra' if ‘true' secularism is followed in this country. Ram Madhav: ‘Hindu Rashtra' is total secularism. There is no contradiction. And to say that we are demanding Hindu Rashtra is very funny to me. India is a ‘Hindu Rashtra'. We have to realize it. Now what is happening is that you are terming people as majority or minority on the basis of religion. And you are saying that a particular religious community should have the first claim over resources. How can it be permitted in any country? Poorest people should have more rights but to say that a particular religion should have first claim is false secularism. Q: What do you mean by ‘cultural nationalism' and why it is always interpreted as against minorities particularly Muslims. Ram Madhav: ‘Cultural nationalism' is similar to the concept of ‘Hindu Rashtra'. ‘Hindu Rashtra' is what we call cultural nationalist idea. India as a nation should follow the age old principles of our ‘Hindu culture' where all ways of worship will flourish, all diversity will flourish but under one principle – We are all one. We have to live respecting each other. Under ‘Hindu Rashtra' or ‘cultural nationalism' setup, you will find every identity being protected under one identity – we are one country, one people, and one culture. As for why ‘cultural nationalism' has been interpreted as against minorities, there are two reasons. One is, those who have got special privileges in the name of minorities, they don't want to give up. They should think about whether this whole drama of special privileges has benefited their communities. Dividing this country in the name of minorities and majorities has not helped minorities and has not helped in creating unity. On the contrary dividing people on religious lines had led to division of this country and once again we can see more of mutual hatred and less of mutual understanding because of this. Secondly and most importantly, pseudo-secular leaders of various political parties are thriving on divisions of our society. These people have turned minorities into votes, minority votes. Q: RSS had started had started a dialogue with Muslims and Christians in the past. What is the status as on today? Ram madhav: we had very good response. This dialogue is still continuing. A large number of Muslim and Christian leaders have appreciated the idea that let's all live together as one people, one community. Let's have our own different religious practices but we should live with respect for each other. Let's not divide ourselves into groups or blocks. It has been appreciated by one and all. We are continuing the dialogue. Q: RSS was apolitical for a very long time. But RSS became more interested in politics recently especially after Vajpayee govt came into power. Have you changed the strategy? Ram madhav: This question is not being asked for the first time. During my 10 years of tenure as RSS spokesperson, I have seen this question being raised regularly. Every time there was a leadership change in BJP, this question will invariably come up. Q: Even Advani is not happy with your interference in BJP affairs? He wrote that famous letter as well. Ram Madhav: I really don't know What Advani ji has said on this. That letter was with respect to a particular functionary of RSS and not the organization as a whole. After that, he has repeated a number of times that he is a swayamsevak and he respects RSS very much. As far as RSS being political or apolitical is concerned, let me say one thing. We are a socio-cultural organization. But in any society, politics plays a very important role. So we can't be completely aloof from politics. That doesn't mean we are interested in day to day politics. There are RSS members who are working in political areas. They are active mostly through BJP. So if they want to consult the alma mater (RSS) for some advice, why we should say no to them? Q: Everybody knows it's RSS that takes final decision in BJP. Take the case of Modi's candidature for PM. We all know that since RSS is pushing his case, he was made the chairman of election campaign committee despite objections from a veteran like L K Advani. So why don't you not accept that you guys take the final decision in BJP? Ram Madhav: Thanks for your suggestion. You just go back to 3 years and tell me what the media was writing about Modi and RSS. At that time you used to write that RSS and Modi are arch-rivals, they don't see eye to eye and all. Now media says Modi is the darling of RSS. These are all media interpretations. All the decisions in BJP are taken by BJP only. Yes, there will be consultations because we share the same ideology and vision.And why should there be any problem to India TV or anybody else if BJP and RSS leaders have no problem about sharing views. Q: India TV has no problem with this. I'm asking this for better clarity for our readers. Ram Madhav: The interesting thing is people are very clear about these things. We also meet people. The relationship between BJP and RSS is clearer to people than probably you all think. We are not the ones who control the BJP. Yes, we have a system where we consult each other on vital decisions. But beyond that, RSS has no role in BJP's day to day affairs. BJP is an independent organization. They are capable people. They are our swayamsevakas. We have faith in them. Q: How do you look at Modi's PM candidature? He is said to be RSS's favourite. Ram Madhav: See, PM will be decided by two people – BJP leadership and general public. As for BJP's PM candidate, it will be BJP's decision. Q: What is RSS view on Modi's candidature? Ram Madhav: When the BJP asks it, we'll let them know. Not to media. Q: Coming to 84 kosi parikrama of VHP in Ayodhya, the SP government says that the BJP and sangh parivar is trying to create the same communal sentiments of 1990s. They also link it to the appointment of Amit Shah as the state in-charge of BJP in UP. Ram Madhav: Samajwadi party is the sinking ship in UP because of the way the govt is being run by the young CM who is a little less experienced. In order to retrieve their political fortunes in the state, they are indulging in minority politics. There was no reason for them to go after the Sadhus and saints who just wanted to do a peaceful parikrama. Q: If I may ask a purely political question, how do you rate the performance of the Manmohan Singh led UPA government. Ram Madhav: Unfortunately, we don't have the habit of rating governments. But yes, looking at what is happening in this country we feel very sad. The way the lives of common people are affected today is really shocking. Take the case of inflation level, the kind of economic mess that we are finding ourselves in today. On the security front, India was never seen by the outsiders as so meek, weak and submissive. Here is a country that is facing such ignominy at both borders (Pakistan and China). The government, its army and political system looks so helpless in the face of these challenges. Even on social front, we see a very thorough demoralization under this government. Let the people rate this government. Q: What is the economic outlook of RSS in 21st century? What is your take on Rupee slide? This is happening with an economist as our PM. Ram Madhav: This most sorry commentary on this government because it is headed by a so-called expert economist. Today the economy is into such a tailspin that nobody knows how to control it. That speaks volumes of the expertise that this PM has. Coming to the economic model that we believe in, 20 years ago when this liberalization process had started, we had said that we need a model where Indian economic fundamentals are strengthened first. To this day, we have not done that. Our manufacturing sector is in pathetic condition. For defence equipments, we have to look to other countries like France, Austria and Russia.. This has resulted in current account deficit problem. Everything is being imported in this country- from shirts to shoes. You want to open even retail sector for Walmart. I believe there, our fundamentals are wrong. That's why we say -strengthen Indian economy that is equal to European economy. European market consists of less than 35 crore customers. In India, we have 50 plus crore middle class here. Use this as a potential market, strengthen Indian economy and then go for international liberalization programmes. Q: So somewhere, you are talking about' Swadeshi' model. Ram Madhav: Absolutely. Swadeshi should be understood in this manner. We are not saying, close your borders. We are saying, have strong economic base in India and then go for liberalization. We have seen that happening in China, from 1979 onwards. Q: ‘Swadeshi' does not seem to be on priority list of Modi's govt in Gujarat. Modi is bullish on foreign investment. So if Modi becomes PM, will this issue not lead to confrontation between RSS and Modi? Ram Madhav: Even in Gujarat, their manufacturing base is strong. Their infrastructure is strong. They have good roads, electricity, and good internet connectivity. Once you develop all this, you go for open markets, you invite people from outside. But in India, where is electricity and roads? How can industry survive in this country? Probably for the next government, this is the biggest challenge. The pathetic condition of our basic infrastructure speaks volumes about today's economic mess. That has to be corrected. Q: Let's move on to ‘religious terrorism'. Who do you blame for it and what remedy will you suggest for tackling this? Ram Madhav: Deal with it sternly. A ‘stern' state is needed to contain terrorism. A state that has guts to act against terrorists, without any considerations. The sad part in this country is even terrorism gets mired in political controversies. We are still not able to decide who is terrorist, who is not. In countries like England, they have the special evidence act which is so strict compared to the laws that we have in India. India is the only country that has done away with existing tough laws whereas in the whole world, newer and newer laws are being made to tackle terrorism. The reason being that in India, we treat terrorism with a political view. We should not do that. Deal terrorism ruthlessly, mercilessly. Q: Do you believe that there is a religious angle to terrorism in India. Ram Madhav: If it is happening, tackle it with equal ruthlessness. But just because there is one religion inspired terrorism, don't try to create an equal by saying that there is also religious terrorism from other side. In this country or even in the whole world, there is only one religion linked to the terrorism. I don't blame any religion for that. That terrorism is Jihadi terrorism where the Jihadi says that I'm inspired by this religious ideology. Probably that religion, mullahs, scriptures, scholars don't say that. But the Jihadi quotes religious scriptures. He says I have justification for this in my religion. On the other side, you pick up a few boys and because they happen to belong to a particular religion, you can't blame that religion is promoting terrorism. Q: In USA, the authorities keep a hawk's eye on madrasas . Do you agree with that and do you think India should also do the same? Ram Madhav: Wherever there is a possibility of nurturing of such anti-people, anti-national ideas, government has to keep a watch on them. I'll tell you with full knowledge that in India, our agencies know what happens in these places but what we lack is the political will to tackle these issues. I'm not against a particular form of teaching but nobody has the right to convert those Madrasas into breeding ground of anti-India sentiments. If that is happening, that should be stopped. Q: Is that happening in India? Ram Madhav: As far as I know, it's happening in some places. We hear a lot of reports. Q: Your opponents like Digvijay Singh blame you for what they call ‘saffron terrorism' gaining ground in India. How would you react to that? Ram Madhav: First of all, we don't attach any importance to the statement of Digvijay Singh. Since the question is related to ‘saffron terrorism', I would only say that this was again only a political creation. There is no such thing as ‘saffron terrorism'. Had it existed, probably people like Digvijay Singh would not have dared to open their mouths. The very fact that such careless, baseless and calumnious statements emanate from people like him is a valid proof that no such thing like ‘saffron terror' exists. Q: One major problem that India is facing today is increasing crime against women. From Delhi bus rape to Mumbai photojournalist rape to Asaram sexual assault case, how do you look at it? Ram Madhav: I would say the complete blame has to be put on men. Men have to change their mindset. We in the RSS have been telling wherever we have meetings of youth. We tell youth that in this country men treat women not only as inferiors but also as weak. So whenever they get an opportunity, they try to violate their dignity and honour and this is so shocking. Men have no right to decide what a woman should wear or not wear. Men have to change attitude towards women. Let women decide in this country what they should wear. In this country, there are women who have been respected for their courage and boldness. They have run this country. In this country, women have become PMs and presidents. They are aware what is good, what is not good for this country. As a society, whenever there is a need, let society advice men and women both about certain things one should do or not do. But then there are many things that men should not do. Why are they doing? Q: Final question, how do you look at the present political scenario and who,according to you, will form the next government? Ram Madhav: People will decide who will form the next government. But one thing that I see is that there is utter restlessness especially among the youth of this country. They are fed up with the economic mess, social violence including communal tension, increasing crime against women, honest officers are being punished. People are very upset with all this. I am sure to the extent that people want a change in this country. They are looking for somebody who can change all the wrong things happening in this country. I'm sure whenever the occasion comes; they will use their vote to change this.